New DW Game?
Moderator: Admin
New DW Game?
If Shifting suns came out and said they were going to come out with Devil Whiskey 2 and wanted to know how many people would be purchasing the game, would you be one to purchase a new DW 2? Please everyone vote in the poll to show our support for DW
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usha
Looks like there's a concensus emerging.. 
..but is anyone (with dev-powers) listening??
..but is anyone (with dev-powers) listening??
No Contraries : No Progression.
Opposition is true friendship, unless one is opposed to true friendship or (try) Resisting here http://www.cafepress.com/notheresistor
Opposition is true friendship, unless one is opposed to true friendship or (try) Resisting here http://www.cafepress.com/notheresistor
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dragonbait
- Stalker
- Posts: 775
- Joined: Mon Apr 10, 2006 3:07 pm
DW8 (it's never 2 late) seemeth a worthy cheerio! Here-Hear!! 
Just be sure to keep yer sword-piece outta yer way as ye all go keeling over & such.
Wonder if we should help out the too-quiet devs by getting Dugg somehow?? There's lot of dang game-poopie over at Digg.com & other sim locales..
How to get the word out??
8) 8)
Just be sure to keep yer sword-piece outta yer way as ye all go keeling over & such.
Wonder if we should help out the too-quiet devs by getting Dugg somehow?? There's lot of dang game-poopie over at Digg.com & other sim locales..
How to get the word out??
8)
8) No Contraries : No Progression.
Opposition is true friendship, unless one is opposed to true friendship or (try) Resisting here http://www.cafepress.com/notheresistor
Opposition is true friendship, unless one is opposed to true friendship or (try) Resisting here http://www.cafepress.com/notheresistor
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Domhnall4h
- Gnomicron
- Posts: 327
- Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:22 am
- Location: Middle of Nowhere, then turn right
Is there a market for it? DW hasn't achieved that much of critical acclaim, even among gamers who love classic-styled games. The lack of Developer presence, leaving a small, dedicated user-base to basically run things, hasn't helped. And to top it off, the forum has only now worked for the first time for me since whenever I last posted.
If you'd asked me before, I'd have enthusiastically claimed support for a trilogy, based on the original 2D DW engine. Now, I doubt it highly. My enthusiasm is long gone, my support eroded like an under-strength, under-supplied airborne division trapped at Bastogne in the dead of winter with no supplies or relief in sight. To top it off, it was my understanding that the Developers used Open Source code in the development. I still haven't seen hide nor hair of anything in return to the open-source community. While I'm not particularly devoted to open source myself, my code has always stayed strictly my own, I also have not used anyone else's work in my own, particularly when the one agreement to that use was to release something to the public in return. As a programmer working on his own games, this sours me on Shifting Suns as a whole. And I'm not likely to put my money down to a company that I feel has wronged someone on some level.
The artistic quality of DW is excellent, music and artwork is great. I suppose the textures could be redrawn somewhat, and more detailing added to the maps, but that's still not bad at all. The gameplay had a few balance issues, and a few features were originally not included that should have been, but overall DW1 was a solid offering, particularly for a new company, and especially for one seperated by many miles and oceans and national borders. But currently it appears that the original focus of the game was lost somewhere along the way, and an overriding concern for person profit overcame the premise of a spiritual sequel to the old Bard's Tale games.
I wonder who all was around when this was Bard's Tale IV? Or when the project split into 2D and 3D camps? I know I was, and while I was pleased with the end result, I'm not sure I'd support a repeat, at least from Shifting Suns.
Of course, at this point DW is old hat. Unless there's something honestly concrete to offer, nothing will come of the user-base pushing DW2 in general forums. It was not widely accepted, partly because of it's cost and partly because of the Open-Source fiasco and partly because it was too retro to be cool. If you're lucky, no one will remember DW, and thus a sequel won't be held down by so much baggage. Most likely, there'll be a general feeling of some negativity around the name.
If you'd asked me before, I'd have enthusiastically claimed support for a trilogy, based on the original 2D DW engine. Now, I doubt it highly. My enthusiasm is long gone, my support eroded like an under-strength, under-supplied airborne division trapped at Bastogne in the dead of winter with no supplies or relief in sight. To top it off, it was my understanding that the Developers used Open Source code in the development. I still haven't seen hide nor hair of anything in return to the open-source community. While I'm not particularly devoted to open source myself, my code has always stayed strictly my own, I also have not used anyone else's work in my own, particularly when the one agreement to that use was to release something to the public in return. As a programmer working on his own games, this sours me on Shifting Suns as a whole. And I'm not likely to put my money down to a company that I feel has wronged someone on some level.
The artistic quality of DW is excellent, music and artwork is great. I suppose the textures could be redrawn somewhat, and more detailing added to the maps, but that's still not bad at all. The gameplay had a few balance issues, and a few features were originally not included that should have been, but overall DW1 was a solid offering, particularly for a new company, and especially for one seperated by many miles and oceans and national borders. But currently it appears that the original focus of the game was lost somewhere along the way, and an overriding concern for person profit overcame the premise of a spiritual sequel to the old Bard's Tale games.
I wonder who all was around when this was Bard's Tale IV? Or when the project split into 2D and 3D camps? I know I was, and while I was pleased with the end result, I'm not sure I'd support a repeat, at least from Shifting Suns.
Of course, at this point DW is old hat. Unless there's something honestly concrete to offer, nothing will come of the user-base pushing DW2 in general forums. It was not widely accepted, partly because of it's cost and partly because of the Open-Source fiasco and partly because it was too retro to be cool. If you're lucky, no one will remember DW, and thus a sequel won't be held down by so much baggage. Most likely, there'll be a general feeling of some negativity around the name.
http://grimmgames.freeforums.org/index.php
San Angelo... What do you know? Now tell me do you have something to say? Don't get me wrong, I miss my home, and it feels like I'm a million miles away.
San Angelo... What do you know? Now tell me do you have something to say? Don't get me wrong, I miss my home, and it feels like I'm a million miles away.
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HGamer
- War Monger
- Posts: 188
- Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 7:59 pm
- Location: Land of fruits & nuts, i.e. SoCal
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I don't have a problem with how they handled Open Source, but I wasn't around before DW was released. There was a promise to eventually release the source code, given some decent sales. Looks like they didn't materialize, so the promise wasn't fulfilled. I'm hoping that piracy wasn't to blame, as I've seen in the bishoujo anime games segment. If a code release would allow adding some of the things we on the forum have asked for, then it would be worthwhile to keep agitating, but otherwise it's just us banging off each other in here. While us retro gamers have more of a voice now with these kinds of forums, there don't seem to be too many of us.
I prefer the turn-based, or at least "frequent pauses", battle systems, and the prospect of modding kept me interested in DW. Sorry that I haven't released anything yet, but someday...
I prefer the turn-based, or at least "frequent pauses", battle systems, and the prospect of modding kept me interested in DW. Sorry that I haven't released anything yet, but someday...
1 point 21 jigawatts!
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Domhnall4h
- Gnomicron
- Posts: 327
- Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:22 am
- Location: Middle of Nowhere, then turn right
The Open Source problem stems from the fact that they used Open Source material in the game. Under the typical Open Source license, you can use it so long as you release your finished code as Open Source as well.
They haven't even put a link to the OS code that they used, much less anything else. Of course no one can do anything, because those people who release such code OS tends t not have money laying around. they do it for the fun of it, not because they desire to quit their day jobs.
Which is what I think happened. They "promise" to release the source was for some 50k sales... ridiculously high given the limited scope of the game. Add in that it essentially was unfinished upon released, and there's little hope for 50k sales. From any realistic standpoint, it should have been known that this number would not be reached, but it gave lip service to the OS community to give them some hope that their work wasn't be exploited.
As far as the OS community is concerned, they were lied to and exploited. As far as I'm concerned, the whole project changed dramatically from "Make a cool game and pay for the costs" to "Sell 1.5 million dollars worth of this thing that wasn't finished. Hey, are we as big as EA yet?"
While I'm not privy to the internal mess at Shifting Suns, nor the underlying motives to lying to and exploiting the OS community, I don't agree with it in any way. According to Jon Starnes' own words, they were "committed" to the OS community, fully intending to release the source at the end of the game's life. Is anyone even buying DW anymore? There might be a few sales, but I can't see a serious sales increase; the initial rush is gone, long gone; and many of those users have moved on to different things. Even the developers have moved on, giving up on their hopes to quit their day jobs for game development. The time it would take to reach 50k sales now would be until the next Crusade to free the Holy Land from the Muslims. It won't be happening.
Sadly, the more I think of it, the very same game that at one time I took time to promote myself, and pushed for everywhere I went online, and in some cases even IRL, I wouldn't even bother to support the company if it went with a new game, RPG or not. They made their choice, and it affects mine.
They haven't even put a link to the OS code that they used, much less anything else. Of course no one can do anything, because those people who release such code OS tends t not have money laying around. they do it for the fun of it, not because they desire to quit their day jobs.
Which is what I think happened. They "promise" to release the source was for some 50k sales... ridiculously high given the limited scope of the game. Add in that it essentially was unfinished upon released, and there's little hope for 50k sales. From any realistic standpoint, it should have been known that this number would not be reached, but it gave lip service to the OS community to give them some hope that their work wasn't be exploited.
As far as the OS community is concerned, they were lied to and exploited. As far as I'm concerned, the whole project changed dramatically from "Make a cool game and pay for the costs" to "Sell 1.5 million dollars worth of this thing that wasn't finished. Hey, are we as big as EA yet?"
While I'm not privy to the internal mess at Shifting Suns, nor the underlying motives to lying to and exploiting the OS community, I don't agree with it in any way. According to Jon Starnes' own words, they were "committed" to the OS community, fully intending to release the source at the end of the game's life. Is anyone even buying DW anymore? There might be a few sales, but I can't see a serious sales increase; the initial rush is gone, long gone; and many of those users have moved on to different things. Even the developers have moved on, giving up on their hopes to quit their day jobs for game development. The time it would take to reach 50k sales now would be until the next Crusade to free the Holy Land from the Muslims. It won't be happening.
Sadly, the more I think of it, the very same game that at one time I took time to promote myself, and pushed for everywhere I went online, and in some cases even IRL, I wouldn't even bother to support the company if it went with a new game, RPG or not. They made their choice, and it affects mine.
http://grimmgames.freeforums.org/index.php
San Angelo... What do you know? Now tell me do you have something to say? Don't get me wrong, I miss my home, and it feels like I'm a million miles away.
San Angelo... What do you know? Now tell me do you have something to say? Don't get me wrong, I miss my home, and it feels like I'm a million miles away.
Dom, it pains & saddens me to largely agree with ya. But I don't think their decisions were done with excessive greed or any malice--more likely they just got burned out with all their efforts & then disappointed & discouraged with the lack of sales.. & perhaps some in-fighting??
I've said several times both at the forums & directly to the devs, 'what harm from releasing the source code now?' (especially after sales had peaked)
Seems to me they might actually generate More income in the long run by releasing the source-code with some fan-fare.. & then:
1--try to get press (esp. in the OS community)
2--coordinate with some of the modders here to make improvements
3--really push the moddin' aspect
4--continue to sell the game, but at nominal cost.. say, $5~10
5--sell game-related accessories such as spell, monster or hint books, t-shirts, stickers, calendars, etc. (easy to do via CafePress or similar)
6--request donations via PayPal or similar (as long as they were 'present' & actively helping folks, I'd slide a few PayPal bux over periodically; but as it is, I'm dis-inclined to even renew my membership)
7--maybe try to dev an online version.. even if simplified or just for combat.. arena-style with each other
Plus, folks like Dom will come back to the fold if/when SS/dev'ers do the right thing & open the code. At least some lingering issues could get fixed, right?
Don't know about everyone else, but I would be Much more inclined to pay for something that wasn't proprietary & thus open for fixing & expansion, etc.
I've said several times both at the forums & directly to the devs, 'what harm from releasing the source code now?' (especially after sales had peaked)
Seems to me they might actually generate More income in the long run by releasing the source-code with some fan-fare.. & then:
1--try to get press (esp. in the OS community)
2--coordinate with some of the modders here to make improvements
3--really push the moddin' aspect
4--continue to sell the game, but at nominal cost.. say, $5~10
5--sell game-related accessories such as spell, monster or hint books, t-shirts, stickers, calendars, etc. (easy to do via CafePress or similar)
6--request donations via PayPal or similar (as long as they were 'present' & actively helping folks, I'd slide a few PayPal bux over periodically; but as it is, I'm dis-inclined to even renew my membership)
7--maybe try to dev an online version.. even if simplified or just for combat.. arena-style with each other
Plus, folks like Dom will come back to the fold if/when SS/dev'ers do the right thing & open the code. At least some lingering issues could get fixed, right?
Don't know about everyone else, but I would be Much more inclined to pay for something that wasn't proprietary & thus open for fixing & expansion, etc.
No Contraries : No Progression.
Opposition is true friendship, unless one is opposed to true friendship or (try) Resisting here http://www.cafepress.com/notheresistor
Opposition is true friendship, unless one is opposed to true friendship or (try) Resisting here http://www.cafepress.com/notheresistor
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Domhnall4h
- Gnomicron
- Posts: 327
- Joined: Sun Feb 13, 2005 9:22 am
- Location: Middle of Nowhere, then turn right
It's a sure sign of the coming Apocalypse that the Yeti and me agree. Of course, the first Sign was the Aqua Teen Hunger Force colon Movie Film for Theaters. This is the Second. But I digress.
A big publicity stunt around finally releasing the source, coupled with a price drop will give a quick shot in the arm, but it won't do much unless there's a) dev's presence on the boards and elsewhere and b) something to sustain it, like a sequel. You have a solid engine as it is, write a new scenario, tweak the graphics to provide more detail to the world, and expand the players' options in game.
And for God's sake keep the forums alive! 2-3 month outages with a month of work in between doesn't help things.
A big publicity stunt around finally releasing the source, coupled with a price drop will give a quick shot in the arm, but it won't do much unless there's a) dev's presence on the boards and elsewhere and b) something to sustain it, like a sequel. You have a solid engine as it is, write a new scenario, tweak the graphics to provide more detail to the world, and expand the players' options in game.
And for God's sake keep the forums alive! 2-3 month outages with a month of work in between doesn't help things.
http://grimmgames.freeforums.org/index.php
San Angelo... What do you know? Now tell me do you have something to say? Don't get me wrong, I miss my home, and it feels like I'm a million miles away.
San Angelo... What do you know? Now tell me do you have something to say? Don't get me wrong, I miss my home, and it feels like I'm a million miles away.